Santi: The Planet - that's our house.

Dharma is a suchness, an empty fullness, a thisness, thatness. There is a sequential nature to Dharma: PURIFICATION, TRANSFORMATION and TRANSCENDENCE. To transform, to yield, to adapt, to surrender; to transcend to wholeness, to interdependence, to live in wholeness. This is the inherent sustainable order. Dharma directs us through this sequential order with selfless action and we reach this through meditation. The order is 'out there' and we can see it only when we are within ourselves. We can't make peace in the world without peace within us. We find the peace within us to make it manifest. We are led to people and places that give us sustenance, courage and confidence to get the vision of peace within us. Starts within and then it finds reference points outside.

Jutta: You obtain it, to incarnate it, so you are.

Santi: The things I know are peanuts, what I don't know mountains! But the more one has the feeling for Dharma the more reverential one becomes to the order of things. Through knowing the order we also become aware of the disorder - disorder is violation - outside the 'dreaming' if you like.

Jutta: Yes, Mowaljali said there are two types of dreaming.

Santi: Yes, hallucinations or vision.

Willem: You say Venerable Santi - we are in Australia. Mowaljali made this drawing of Australia. (Shows the body of Australia from Yorro Yorro book.)

Santi: Yes, it is very different in Western thinking - we see the Earth as an object.

Willem: (Brings out the Eureka Southern Cross flag). This Corpus Australis needs a structure, to tell the stories. Our friend, a psychotherapist, Craig San Roque showed us this structure: each of the stars represents a different element. At the top here we have cosmology/ontology, on one side we have kinship or relationship, on the other side cultural history and at the bottom the container - that which contains all of this including the self in the middle. This is like the skeleton, this structure and the bone marrow is the teachings, which we have found with Jutta and John Allan and yourself. These are all very important elements for future generations.

Santi: To get a more grounded Corpus.

Willem: We can take the stories, travel the songlines and this psychotherapist also talks about the trauma trails, the same as John Allan, which need healing in this body.

Santi: Yes, Some places are these places of trauma and some places are places of power. Like the lake at the Watt - Buddha compared the still mind with the still lake.

Willem: Wungud

Jutta: Yes, although Wungud is also regenerative

Santi: We need the still mind to see and then we find the regeneration. For there are the heavy places, the burden places.

Willem: In Europe we call it the guilty landscape because it has seen atrocities. So, yes, what we are working, would like to work is this. We've been following it a long time. Jutta has already given us material through Kula: a culture of exchange

Jutta: Its dynamic

Santi: The Buddhist word Kula means family - that which is united, the awakened relation, well-natured, established family, the family that goes in wellness.

Jutta: (reads from Kula) It's a survival. A practical system that has ensured the survival of a group of 40 islands with different languages/races all trading. The dynamics of it are in the minds of the seers.

Santi: The Elders

Jutta: They're the bedposts. Its spiritual/mental organization and trading. (She describes the fundamental principles of Kula culture and further still many documentated oral accounts of symbolic readings of nature which prove themselves accurate in human business) there is symbolic fidelity. They're never wrong

Santi: We talk also of Kula family being about direction and light: sunset sun, midnight moon and so on. Different manifestations but their root is the centre, the source. Going back to the source in which the stillness is complete. People who are deeply rooted in nature can read it. The elders can read and give tasks to those on the path of awakening so they find the resources to come back to the centre. The Kula family is that which centres itself.

Willem: That's very connected

Jutta: Yes, I can see it diagrammatically.

Willem: Men's business/women's business (shows Hannah Rachel Bell's book). I want to bring this in. Yin/Yang. The first thing we discover is male/female. On the mystical path there is the teaching that wholeness comes through realisation of the male in the female and the female in the male.

Santi: Yes, Jung also speaks of this with the anima and animus. To recognise the origin manifesting in this movement of Yin/Yang. Become adapted to the polarity of the Tao. In the depth of the soul always indicates what we need to find our inner so it speaks. You have to speak with the feminine part in self to become a complete human being. The one-sidedness disturbs the natural order. Where being male/female is dynamic it leads to fulfilment. In Buddhism if we are attached to being male, then we have a problem with the women. But if the movement is dynamic - interrelated, interdependent, then it balances itself.

Jutta: It's a wholeness of understanding.

Santi: there is male/female but they're not static: its interrelated and interdependent process that affirms the source of the Tao/Nirvana. Formlessness is interrelated and interdependent. Form is appearance but it is based in formlessness.

Willem: We have an understanding that Space is male and time is female - what do you think?

Santi: For us, space is neutral, has no gender. Time perhaps, yes, perhaps time but Dharma has no gender. It could manifest through the heart in gender but it's beyond gender.

Willem: The male/female polarity is a serious problem

Santi: O yes, its created cultural hierarchies

Willem: We have been experimenting with cultural possibilities and practises here at the lab. At the last Culture Camp we operated with men's Business/Women's business and set up those two camps plus a community camp. Of course we have only gone so far with these experiments but we ran immediately into trouble just with these explorations. The women seemed to hold themselves and worked together to create a central facing space but the men were all over the place.

Jutta: Of course. Women are the Earth.

Santi: Yes, the early wisdom is grounded in the feminine. It is circular, no beginning, no middle, and no end. It knows there is no beginning and no end because everything is complete.

Jutta: That's figuratively speaking. Let me through something in from Mowaljali . I've mostly worked with men. There's a ritual for men's passing - to rejuvenate him into a baby's spirit (they have a belief in reincarnation). So it's a very complicated ritual for the man but the women just gets interned. I said to Mowaljali: hold on, what about the women. He said: no need, she goes immediately back to the Earth, to her own womb. Men's calling is to serve the spiritual part. There has to be two camps but they have to relate. Men's rituals, which are blood sacrifice and the use of ochre which represents Earth, iron - the man pays reverence to the female, nourish the women who nourish him.

Willem: Why is this separation? Is it necessary to keep men and women separate in the way water and fire must be kept separate or they destroy each other?

Jutta: Yes, exactly. Now let's go back to Corpus Australis. Mowaljali drew this map and I said: ah, Yes, Corpus Australis - that's how I can hand it on. It is very important that you refer to this image of the Corpus and to the story: Mowaljali also explained that the continent was a body and there was a catastrophe and in this catastrophe the body he rose up and then fell back down again and we know this because it is always longer to travel going North then going South.

There were smaller and larger Wandjina (There are different subdivisions - like Christ and his disciples.) and they walked - this is very important - they walked and manifested animals, illness, food - everything. And men were made to be the totem keepers. And now they have something to exchange too. And they walk, culture pattern, criss-crossing - I call it basket weaving these patterns across the Corpus.

I want to repeat this: this is YOUR pattern (to Willem): He pointed out different totems. The Ancestors carried the mist and created the escarpment, then laid down to rest and left their image. And there places of increase - unless the custodian and his family go there regularly and stimulate it with clapsticks/singing/painting it/ anything to stimulate energies/sing the story/ceremony - to stimulate the increase of the particular totem.

In that place now there has just been a huge land claim awarded so the custodians can return to take care of those places. White people don't know about this anymore. It's been bred out of us for three and half thousand years since the rule of the pharaohs and priests and so on. These hierarchies have been looking after the spiritual things and they have been taken out of our hands. This akashic record for Dharma has been lost in the West, that's what Buddhism has been nurturing and bringing to the West too.

Santi: Having a personalised, integrated image of the land. The body is the temple of life. That is Dharma. You have to go into the body. I like this. Landscape of Dharma. Those who have a perfect vision of nature have roots in the Earth, have the Mother [principle, like the Aboriginal people. The Western world has lost it, no relation to Earth, only an object of their interest.

Willem: How can we find the land if it is gone?

Santi: In nature there is no erosion of memory. Once you tap in then the law is there.

Jutta: Dharma is the law: if you don't feel it in the depths of the soul there is no hunting or capturing of it.

Willem: Are there ways of arriving to it? How to we find it if we have lost it?

Santi: Yes, we say: